You are, as always, clear minded, honest and truthful. And your evaluation is right.
I had begun a much longer post, but it is useless, because you said it better than I could ever have.
Yes, it is for Muslims to push back against Islamism, and they do not, unfortunately, do it either enough or well -- the reason lies in part in the identitarian fever that has infected the whole world, in part in the long-brewing ethno nationalist sentiment that colonialism only made worse, and in part the pressure of community taboos and fear of retaliation.
It is certainly not easy for Muslims to speak out among their own, to promote a personal, different interpretation of the sacred texts or the idea that these may be allegory and not factual truth; it may carry the risk of ostracism, violence and physical injury or death. I do understand this. Christians have had the same problem for 20 centuries. But if Luther and the others managed it, knowing they risked torture and death (no matter how many of their own the Protestants then put to death for heresy), so should, after all, the good-thinking Muslims be able to.
Because unless they do denounce the fundamentalist views of Islam and those literal religious principles that empower them, and unless their non-Muslim friends press them to do so and be clear, there will come a time in which we in the West will discriminate on the basis of religion, for our own safety, and it will be soon.
Strong case for why ideological critique isnt the same as demographic blame. The tension between respecting individual Muslims and addressing systemic ideological problems gets collapsed too often. What stands out is the point about complicity throught apologetics versus active reform. Reminds me of how any political tradition needs internal critics willing to say uncomfortable truths, not just PR damage control. The call for supporting Muslim reformers over amplifying either Islamist voices or blanket condemnation seems like the only workable path forward, even if its the hardest one politcally.
That is a very perceptive analysis of Islam and violence. And I agree with your solution. Reforms from within. Unfortunately, while change by violence can happen overnight, reform by moderates through persuasion can take a couple of hundred years. In the mean time, I need to protect my family today. I don’t know what the answer is but multi-culturalism is not among them, not when there are cultures / religions that do not believe in co-existence.
"Believing one knows the divine will of God and what he wants for humans .."
The jaw-dropping bit here is that the people who claim that it is sacreligous to merely depict Allah with a brush or pen (on pain of death) also claim to know God's mind so surely that they can be judge, jury and executioner on his behalf. If they were to follow their own logic they'd dipose of themselves quick sharp. Maybe that's the answer.
Beautifully said… you are a very wise person! Yes the tragedy at Bondi Beach represent the worst and best manifestations of Islam. The ‘worst’ though is pretty terrible and frightens people, understandably so.
And yes, I agree with you that it would be helpful for Muslims to speak out … however, I understand their fear also.
This is fantastic. I believe cultures are defined by what they tolerate. Islam has been too tolerant, even if it's largely out of fear, of the hate and radicalism within the ideology and community. If cultures do not self police their own radicals, collectively denouncing and unaffiliating with their socially destructive members (whether they are violating laws or taboos), they can expect the whole culture to be painted with a broad brush.
The only way out of this mess is for more brave people, ideally within but also outside of the Muslim community, to vocally condemn the worst of Islam while encouraging the majority of moderate Muslims to do the same and align to moderation and liberalism.
As a general observation, not confined to Islam, it is the fanatical minority who are relevant and the moderate majority who are irrelevant. Nazism, Communism, and Islam all have this characteristic. None of them operate on democratic principles. Only around 10% of Germans were members of the Nazi party for example. Yet they controlled the 90% of "moderate" Germans.
In the UK a number of opinion polls were conducted. Finding that around a quarter to a third of UK Muslims are pro-jihad. See:
This may be an under estimate, because Islam permits deceit, and some may not want to tell a stranger that they are in favour of murdering unbelievers.
I am grateful that the hero intervened. He did so due to his shared humanity.
However note well: according to the Koran, the two perpetrators are guaranteed paradise (Koran 9:111). And the one who refuses to fight against unbelievers (i.e. the hero) is going to hell. This is what the Koran teaches Muslims to believe. I do not myself believe this nonsense.
Of course there are many decent individual Muslims living in western countries who ignore the fundamental instructions in the Koran and Hadith to do harm to non-Muslims , apostates, blasphemers, gays and women. However, there is not getting away from the fact that if we had zero Islamic immigration in western countries we would never be in a situation where we need a good Muslim to intervene to stop a fundamentalist on a murder spree. No other imported religion into western countries has a considerable cohort of its adherents who are anti-western supremacists with many willing to carry out acts of barbaric terrorism.
It's necessary for people to hear this message as often as possible. There are good and bad humans. Unfortunately, neither category maps perfectly onto any ethnic, religious, or political category. So our attempts to stay safe by driving away and controlling "those people" won't work, and those attempts usually make us the bad guy to someone else.
Ringrazio, per la sua precisazione,ma,forse mi sono spiegato male usando la definizione " aspettare".
Volevo sostenere ,che,il numero delle persone mussulmane immigrati non è indifferente ,nonostante,il nostro atteggiamento .Come afferma Bulem Sansal ( Algerino da poco scarcerato ,in prigione per critiche al governo algerino e,scarcerato per pressioni esercitato dalla Francia ) : .." è come la muffa sulle pareti ,se, si estende troppo risulta impossibile da elminare".
Quando la popolazione di immigrati mussulmani residente in Francia / Gran Bretagna diventa pari a 6/ 7 milioni con tassi di crescita MOLTO SUPERIORI a quelli dei francesi/inglesi ,il nostro atteggiamento è la pratica ,che pur CONDIVIDO , non cambierà il tribalismo comunitario che anima questa "cultura" .Già dalle ultime elezioni i mussulmani hanno votato non per una visione "ideale" (destra / sinistra /centro) ,ma, per i loro interessi comunitari (la sinistra pro-pal ,ecc)
Pertanto noi progressisti dobbiamo chiarire con onestà intellettuale ,che,le migliori pratiche NON POSSONO CAMBIARE LA REALTÀ, se il numero di immigrati presenti non si stabilizza e possibilmente diminuisce lasceremo ai nostri figli e nipoti un PROBLEMA enorme.
Brave post beautifully put, hope you only get good attention as you deserve
There is nothing in this that I disagree with. I think you provide a balanced view of the topic. Thank you and all the best to you!
You are, as always, clear minded, honest and truthful. And your evaluation is right.
I had begun a much longer post, but it is useless, because you said it better than I could ever have.
Yes, it is for Muslims to push back against Islamism, and they do not, unfortunately, do it either enough or well -- the reason lies in part in the identitarian fever that has infected the whole world, in part in the long-brewing ethno nationalist sentiment that colonialism only made worse, and in part the pressure of community taboos and fear of retaliation.
It is certainly not easy for Muslims to speak out among their own, to promote a personal, different interpretation of the sacred texts or the idea that these may be allegory and not factual truth; it may carry the risk of ostracism, violence and physical injury or death. I do understand this. Christians have had the same problem for 20 centuries. But if Luther and the others managed it, knowing they risked torture and death (no matter how many of their own the Protestants then put to death for heresy), so should, after all, the good-thinking Muslims be able to.
Because unless they do denounce the fundamentalist views of Islam and those literal religious principles that empower them, and unless their non-Muslim friends press them to do so and be clear, there will come a time in which we in the West will discriminate on the basis of religion, for our own safety, and it will be soon.
Strong case for why ideological critique isnt the same as demographic blame. The tension between respecting individual Muslims and addressing systemic ideological problems gets collapsed too often. What stands out is the point about complicity throught apologetics versus active reform. Reminds me of how any political tradition needs internal critics willing to say uncomfortable truths, not just PR damage control. The call for supporting Muslim reformers over amplifying either Islamist voices or blanket condemnation seems like the only workable path forward, even if its the hardest one politcally.
That is a very perceptive analysis of Islam and violence. And I agree with your solution. Reforms from within. Unfortunately, while change by violence can happen overnight, reform by moderates through persuasion can take a couple of hundred years. In the mean time, I need to protect my family today. I don’t know what the answer is but multi-culturalism is not among them, not when there are cultures / religions that do not believe in co-existence.
Immigration policy that requires people who commit to basic liberal values is important, I'd say.
Well done Helen.
"Believing one knows the divine will of God and what he wants for humans .."
The jaw-dropping bit here is that the people who claim that it is sacreligous to merely depict Allah with a brush or pen (on pain of death) also claim to know God's mind so surely that they can be judge, jury and executioner on his behalf. If they were to follow their own logic they'd dipose of themselves quick sharp. Maybe that's the answer.
Beautifully said… you are a very wise person! Yes the tragedy at Bondi Beach represent the worst and best manifestations of Islam. The ‘worst’ though is pretty terrible and frightens people, understandably so.
And yes, I agree with you that it would be helpful for Muslims to speak out … however, I understand their fear also.
This is fantastic. I believe cultures are defined by what they tolerate. Islam has been too tolerant, even if it's largely out of fear, of the hate and radicalism within the ideology and community. If cultures do not self police their own radicals, collectively denouncing and unaffiliating with their socially destructive members (whether they are violating laws or taboos), they can expect the whole culture to be painted with a broad brush.
The only way out of this mess is for more brave people, ideally within but also outside of the Muslim community, to vocally condemn the worst of Islam while encouraging the majority of moderate Muslims to do the same and align to moderation and liberalism.
Thank you.
There is great confusion around this topic.
As a general observation, not confined to Islam, it is the fanatical minority who are relevant and the moderate majority who are irrelevant. Nazism, Communism, and Islam all have this characteristic. None of them operate on democratic principles. Only around 10% of Germans were members of the Nazi party for example. Yet they controlled the 90% of "moderate" Germans.
In the UK a number of opinion polls were conducted. Finding that around a quarter to a third of UK Muslims are pro-jihad. See:
https://hellish2050.substack.com/p/pro-jihad-attitudes-of-uk-muslims
This may be an under estimate, because Islam permits deceit, and some may not want to tell a stranger that they are in favour of murdering unbelievers.
I am grateful that the hero intervened. He did so due to his shared humanity.
However note well: according to the Koran, the two perpetrators are guaranteed paradise (Koran 9:111). And the one who refuses to fight against unbelievers (i.e. the hero) is going to hell. This is what the Koran teaches Muslims to believe. I do not myself believe this nonsense.
Of course there are many decent individual Muslims living in western countries who ignore the fundamental instructions in the Koran and Hadith to do harm to non-Muslims , apostates, blasphemers, gays and women. However, there is not getting away from the fact that if we had zero Islamic immigration in western countries we would never be in a situation where we need a good Muslim to intervene to stop a fundamentalist on a murder spree. No other imported religion into western countries has a considerable cohort of its adherents who are anti-western supremacists with many willing to carry out acts of barbaric terrorism.
It's necessary for people to hear this message as often as possible. There are good and bad humans. Unfortunately, neither category maps perfectly onto any ethnic, religious, or political category. So our attempts to stay safe by driving away and controlling "those people" won't work, and those attempts usually make us the bad guy to someone else.
Moderate Islam Is a Lie – The West Is Deluding Itself
https://hellish2050.substack.com/p/moderate-islam-is-a-lie-the-west
Very well argued. Nuanced and brave. The only objection I have is that your essays keep distracting me from the important task of writing fiction.
I live in Australia. The problem is worse than Jihadists. https://open.substack.com/pub/rawnathan/p/special-envoys?r=h2j7h&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Ringrazio, per la sua precisazione,ma,forse mi sono spiegato male usando la definizione " aspettare".
Volevo sostenere ,che,il numero delle persone mussulmane immigrati non è indifferente ,nonostante,il nostro atteggiamento .Come afferma Bulem Sansal ( Algerino da poco scarcerato ,in prigione per critiche al governo algerino e,scarcerato per pressioni esercitato dalla Francia ) : .." è come la muffa sulle pareti ,se, si estende troppo risulta impossibile da elminare".
Quando la popolazione di immigrati mussulmani residente in Francia / Gran Bretagna diventa pari a 6/ 7 milioni con tassi di crescita MOLTO SUPERIORI a quelli dei francesi/inglesi ,il nostro atteggiamento è la pratica ,che pur CONDIVIDO , non cambierà il tribalismo comunitario che anima questa "cultura" .Già dalle ultime elezioni i mussulmani hanno votato non per una visione "ideale" (destra / sinistra /centro) ,ma, per i loro interessi comunitari (la sinistra pro-pal ,ecc)
Pertanto noi progressisti dobbiamo chiarire con onestà intellettuale ,che,le migliori pratiche NON POSSONO CAMBIARE LA REALTÀ, se il numero di immigrati presenti non si stabilizza e possibilmente diminuisce lasceremo ai nostri figli e nipoti un PROBLEMA enorme.
Con affetto
Vincenzo Bertozzi