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Horus on the Prairie's avatar

Classical liberalism where it exists has always existed alongside community: neighborhoods, voluntary associations, and civil society - the sort of groups Tocqueville lauded. They are compatible with liberalism in the sense they are often chosen freely, and themselves honored liberal principles.

Zahira's avatar
29mEdited

Loved this. Yes, I value liberalism so much precisely because I’ve experienced its opposite, and everyone I know who has escaped an authoritarian regime or culture similarly finds it miraculous and precious.

But when I speak to friends who grew up always having taken living in a liberal society for granted, I can see many have experienced it as excessive, or cutting them off from a source of community or goodness, or a source of value, or a sense of cultural cohesion or continuity, etc etc. I do intuitively grasp what they feel they’ve lost or missed out on - but I am not convinced that an illiberal society would necessarily deliver it any better (or at least, that even it it did, it’d come with a side of tradeoffs that they can’t envision and can be somewhat naive about).

I very much agree humans have both communitarian and individualistic / liberal instincts and that their importance can flex over time and in different contexts - but the loss of one is felt most sharply when it is being lost, denied or torn down. For me personally, having experienced both modes, I have found that living in a liberal culture still affords me the option to self organise into mutual communities and therefore, to find an optimal balance of individualism and community and to bind myself to strong values too - whereas living in an illiberal culture has been worse for not allowing that degree of flexibility.

I also notice that many people’s critiques of liberalism - say for example, the failures of policies relating to multiculturalism - are, in fact, down to allowing some *illiberal* and /or totalitarian expressions of culture / religion to take hold - but this is often in direct opposition to liberal principles enshrined in law so an alternative solution would be to consistently apply the rule of law, rather than either selectively allowing for authoritarian instincts to permeate if they’re done so by so-called oppressed classes or giving up on liberalism altogether. In a similar vein, I wonder if many people’s critiques of liberalism include things that have happened for all of human history, including in the most illiberal, authoritarian societies but are turbo charged more by technology and other factors - for example, if one believes abortion is a great evil of a liberal society, an authoritarian or illiberal or even religious society doesn’t necessarily preclude it given many have allowed for (sometimes forced) abortions / infanticides, and rates have been fairly stable across many different types of societies. Likewise, if someone is bothered about some of the sexual norms in liberal cultures, I wonder what they’d think of pornography use in some of the most religiously oppressive countries, or the ways elites have just tried to get around strict laws - like mistress / short term marital arrangements or laws for taking women as booty for spoils of war, or a class of prostitution that gentleman could make use of, etc. Nor do today’s illiberal/authoritarian countries escape other trends like falling birth rates. So I am not even convinced that a lot of the aims people want to pursue by turning post liberal will indeed be met in a post liberal world, if one were persuaded that the goals were good. And on the flipside, we’d be losing a lot that is taken for granted too.

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