I got a lot out of this interview; it helped clarify my thinking about all the topics discussed, and I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen a better explanation of “woke” on right and left than the one you give here, and in the more detailed explanations I found in an earlier post of yours.
Thanks for doing all this scholarly work; I’ll be using your ideas as reference for the things I want to write about the subject.
Maintaining consistent liberal principles doesn't scream loud, but is the only way to progressive, free and peaceful societies. You are great exactly in neutrally criticizing every illiberal and dogmatic extremism of every side.
There is no material anti-woke or woke-right backlash that is a threat worthy of any serious consideration or concern.
What I see is writers in this space looking for topic opportunity. But just like any entrepreneur chasing a forward-looking trend or idea, sometimes we get it wrong. The biggest losers in these cases are those that don't see the need to pull the plug and go do something different. They keep doubling down on their bet only to lose more.
The opposition to woke is simply that. It would not exist in any form had not the left attempted this radical toxic ideological attack on Western liberal society. There is no threat to the freedom of people outside of all of our traditional Western liberal values and principles. There have been and always will be right extremists... however, they are a very small and non-influential cohort... especially when measured against the mass of radical left activists that permeate Western society today... the result of decades of injecting the fake scholarship, toxic mind virus of Critical Theory through the corrupted education meat factory.
I am 100% anti-woke, but I will defend to the death the ability to left idiots to spout their nonsense about gender, race, colonialism, etc... but they should not have positions of power and influence to promote that sickness into the brains of students and into our public policies. My anti-woke position is that of someone defending Western society to retain all of our time-tested moral principles of liberalism. There is no material movement that wants the woke idiots harmed or even silenced, just out of positions of power and influence.
The conservative Rod Dreher could not disagree with you more.
Bari Weiss at The Free Press wrote:
“Rod is ringing the alarm after a trip across America that ‘shocked me to my core.’ He saw ‘the deep inroads, in such a short period, that right-wing totalitarianism, expressed most often as antisemitism, has made, especially among a growing segment of right-wing males. And unlike so many who point this out, this community is not exotic or foreign to me—this is my world.’ “
Oh Jesus Christ. Good Google searching. Can we please just accept that people that write for a living are always looking for something sensational to push for likes and subscribers? His observations on a trip do not prove any material movement. There is a much larger movement of young conservative men flowing to Christianity. And "right-wing" males? No, not at all. If they hold real antisemitism views, except for the very few hard-core right extremists that love Nazism, they would more likely be Marxists.
I would not be surprised if Dreher was paid to write that crap. With the massive REAL evident that the left is wholly corrupted with antisemitism, it is clear that this is just a tactic used by the left and lazy "journalists" to make up a non-existent moral equivalency argument to deflect the ugly truth and make up content to sell.
No google search—unlike you, I read widely. Obviously, you know nothing of Rod Dreher’s history and reputation or the personal consequences of communicating his concern. Accusing someone of being paid off without any evidence is a sure sign of simple-mindedness. His observations certainly have more weight than your opinions disconnected from any facts. His and Helen’s argument has nothing to do with “moral equivalency.” Careful thinkers are fully capable of raising an alarm without justifying “the other side.” Psychological research and plain observation of political movements demonstrate that one extreme movement provokes an opposite extreme movement. It would be surprising if woke culture didn’t instigate an illiberal movement on the Right. Lastly, can we please just accept that there are people who write shallow comments to make themselves feel important?
E gad... you are one of those people. I have lived among your type... hired and fired more than I can count. You are a second-class critical thinker that believes he is a brilliant academic class.
Give me a friggin' break. They are violent... throwing bricks at ICE vehicles. You must be one of those black masked fugly thugs to enter that comment. That is a law enforcement issue, not a woke issue. I find it telling that you equate the two.
Well, that would be unlikely. People don’t typically say “I was wrong.” They just back away from a thing. Also, there was never very many true believers in the first place - only about 8% of the population. The phenomenon was supported by people who thought it was the right thing to do or because they were afraid not to. It’s been declining in measures of cancellations events, language used by mainstream media, corporate spending and commitments to DEI, public attitudes and more since 2021. But woke responses to the Hamas atrocity made the penny drop for many of those still inclined to think it was a movement for social justice and more and more of the people who were going along with it despite disagreeing with it are no longer doing so. Some prominent figures like Ash Sarkar have criticised it but mostly they’ve just been taking pronouns out of bios and talking about other things .
I appreciate your thoughtful response Helen but think you are being being naive. Orgs are taking precautions where they think there is a risk of public exposure and consequences, but fundamentally they believe in it (or in submission for some greater good, if you like). Nothing save 20 years of Trumpian conservatism will put the genie back in the bottle. If Trump is deposed in 2028, it will all surge right back, likely with a vengeance.
I don't like thinking this. I hate DEI and what it's done to normal discourse.
I got a lot out of this interview; it helped clarify my thinking about all the topics discussed, and I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen a better explanation of “woke” on right and left than the one you give here, and in the more detailed explanations I found in an earlier post of yours.
Thanks for doing all this scholarly work; I’ll be using your ideas as reference for the things I want to write about the subject.
Maintaining consistent liberal principles doesn't scream loud, but is the only way to progressive, free and peaceful societies. You are great exactly in neutrally criticizing every illiberal and dogmatic extremism of every side.
There is no material anti-woke or woke-right backlash that is a threat worthy of any serious consideration or concern.
What I see is writers in this space looking for topic opportunity. But just like any entrepreneur chasing a forward-looking trend or idea, sometimes we get it wrong. The biggest losers in these cases are those that don't see the need to pull the plug and go do something different. They keep doubling down on their bet only to lose more.
The opposition to woke is simply that. It would not exist in any form had not the left attempted this radical toxic ideological attack on Western liberal society. There is no threat to the freedom of people outside of all of our traditional Western liberal values and principles. There have been and always will be right extremists... however, they are a very small and non-influential cohort... especially when measured against the mass of radical left activists that permeate Western society today... the result of decades of injecting the fake scholarship, toxic mind virus of Critical Theory through the corrupted education meat factory.
I am 100% anti-woke, but I will defend to the death the ability to left idiots to spout their nonsense about gender, race, colonialism, etc... but they should not have positions of power and influence to promote that sickness into the brains of students and into our public policies. My anti-woke position is that of someone defending Western society to retain all of our time-tested moral principles of liberalism. There is no material movement that wants the woke idiots harmed or even silenced, just out of positions of power and influence.
The conservative Rod Dreher could not disagree with you more.
Bari Weiss at The Free Press wrote:
“Rod is ringing the alarm after a trip across America that ‘shocked me to my core.’ He saw ‘the deep inroads, in such a short period, that right-wing totalitarianism, expressed most often as antisemitism, has made, especially among a growing segment of right-wing males. And unlike so many who point this out, this community is not exotic or foreign to me—this is my world.’ “
https://www.thefp.com/p/rod-dreher-the-woke-right-is-coming
Oh Jesus Christ. Good Google searching. Can we please just accept that people that write for a living are always looking for something sensational to push for likes and subscribers? His observations on a trip do not prove any material movement. There is a much larger movement of young conservative men flowing to Christianity. And "right-wing" males? No, not at all. If they hold real antisemitism views, except for the very few hard-core right extremists that love Nazism, they would more likely be Marxists.
I would not be surprised if Dreher was paid to write that crap. With the massive REAL evident that the left is wholly corrupted with antisemitism, it is clear that this is just a tactic used by the left and lazy "journalists" to make up a non-existent moral equivalency argument to deflect the ugly truth and make up content to sell.
No google search—unlike you, I read widely. Obviously, you know nothing of Rod Dreher’s history and reputation or the personal consequences of communicating his concern. Accusing someone of being paid off without any evidence is a sure sign of simple-mindedness. His observations certainly have more weight than your opinions disconnected from any facts. His and Helen’s argument has nothing to do with “moral equivalency.” Careful thinkers are fully capable of raising an alarm without justifying “the other side.” Psychological research and plain observation of political movements demonstrate that one extreme movement provokes an opposite extreme movement. It would be surprising if woke culture didn’t instigate an illiberal movement on the Right. Lastly, can we please just accept that there are people who write shallow comments to make themselves feel important?
E gad... you are one of those people. I have lived among your type... hired and fired more than I can count. You are a second-class critical thinker that believes he is a brilliant academic class.
https://roddreher.substack.com/p/second-thoughts-on-woke-right
“they are a very small and non-influential cohort”.
The entire US administration suggests you are wrong. Trump sending troops to LA pretextually doesn’t sound small or non-influential.
Give me a friggin' break. They are violent... throwing bricks at ICE vehicles. You must be one of those black masked fugly thugs to enter that comment. That is a law enforcement issue, not a woke issue. I find it telling that you equate the two.
“You must be one of those black masked fugly thugs”
You mean ICE?
Also, you always go full ad hominem when someone pushes back on you a bit?
Living in California dealing with the destructive violence of the riots, your comment was deserving of direct criticism.
I don't know how you can think woke is over or even diminished. Not one single woke person is coming out about converting. Not one.
Well, that would be unlikely. People don’t typically say “I was wrong.” They just back away from a thing. Also, there was never very many true believers in the first place - only about 8% of the population. The phenomenon was supported by people who thought it was the right thing to do or because they were afraid not to. It’s been declining in measures of cancellations events, language used by mainstream media, corporate spending and commitments to DEI, public attitudes and more since 2021. But woke responses to the Hamas atrocity made the penny drop for many of those still inclined to think it was a movement for social justice and more and more of the people who were going along with it despite disagreeing with it are no longer doing so. Some prominent figures like Ash Sarkar have criticised it but mostly they’ve just been taking pronouns out of bios and talking about other things .
I appreciate your thoughtful response Helen but think you are being being naive. Orgs are taking precautions where they think there is a risk of public exposure and consequences, but fundamentally they believe in it (or in submission for some greater good, if you like). Nothing save 20 years of Trumpian conservatism will put the genie back in the bottle. If Trump is deposed in 2028, it will all surge right back, likely with a vengeance.
I don't like thinking this. I hate DEI and what it's done to normal discourse.