Good post Helen. If I'm honest you could have saved a lot of effort by just noting - correctly - that Mehdi Hasan is a bad-faith-debating obnoxious arsehole and has been for decades, and leaving it at that. However, I salute your desire to be through and academic.
Thank you!👏🏼 One of my early inklings of progressivism's hypocrisy was back in the aughts when I, as a card carrying member, realized I was much more tolerant of religious conservatism among the Muslim and Christian immigrant groups I worked with in Chicago than among white, working class Christians. I may have been gullible but I'm not a snob, and I had to reckon with my double standard. Few of my fellow progressives seemed interested in consistency, and I eventually recognized the progressive elitism that drove me away for good. It's only gotten worse, as evidenced by Mandami's smug smirk and his betrayal of Iranian women. Excellent take on this issue which is apparently more complex than the identitarians can handle.
Well-spoken, Helen. It's appalling to many of us liberals that progressives support, outwardly or tacitly, Islamofascist regimes like Iran and Hamas, yet fail consistently to support women and gays and transfolk persecuted by these regimes. The fact that Muslim men lost their minds over the images of so-called hijab-supporters wearing AI'ed hijabs exposes the real purpose of hijabs: To teach Muslim women 'their place' and perpetuate the oppression by sexually insecure males.
It reminds me of an argument I had with an Orthodox Jew many years ago on Usenet. At that time, Jewish women in Jerusalem were protesting the historical banning of women from praying at the Western Wall. We libs supported the women while Louis argued against it; he claimed it wasn't 'discrimination' and that they were protesting a tradition that 'respects' the two sexes' 'right' to pray in their own space. They clearly don't agree with you, I pointed out, since they want to pray there and Orthodox Jews won't let them. They disagree with you that it isn't discrimination; why aren't you listening to them? What's it to you if they pray there, too?
He didn't have a good answer for that, he just said that 'different' isn't he same as 'discrimination'. I pointed out that if one side feels discriminated against, and doesn't buy your argument, then it isn't over.
I pointed out that like conservative Muslims, Orthodox Jews keep the sexes strictly segregated as a woman's voice and presence is considered sexually arousing, and prevents men from keeping their minds on God. And that if men can't control their thoughts, Jewish or Muslim, perhaps only women should be allowed to pray at the wall until the boys grow up and take responsibility for their own minds.
Yes, people have been trying to get him and Ali to spell out why they find it disgusting but they won’t. Some others did though and said it was degenerate cross-dressing.
But Mehdi is homophobic. I got very annoyed with Owen Jones because he attacked Tim Farron, leader of the LibDems because he could not say that homosexuality was not a sin according to his Christianity even though he also said he would support all aims for advancing LGBT rights and actually did that, as well as committing to getting Christianity out of schools. I could not agree with his stance, but he walked the walk of a liberal in supporting the rights and freedoms of everyone. Jones said this was unacceptable and that he should resign if he couldn’t say that, but he had also praised Mehdi Hasan for actually saying that he believed homosexuality to be a sin but that he supported the rights of gay people. Hasan was also filmed saying unambiguously homophobic things if I remember correctly.
I wasn’t aware of Hasan having expressed those sentiments but it’s unsurprising: I know he has racial biases, and forms of bigotry often come as package deals.
The interesting thing with the pictures is that Mamdami looks like a sexy male character from Lawrence of Arabia with his hijab, but Hasan looks like a frumpy housewife with a crazy amount of facial hair. I imagine he did not fail to notice this, and it made him especially perturbed.
His internet supporters ensure that this clip is kept off of Wikipedia and YouTube, but his many employers among prestigious leftwing publications all knew about it when he was hired back then, but they didn't care. To be fair to Mehdi, he apologised when it came to light.
Ya know.... I understand your intention to think this through on liberal principles, and you've done that. Still, I'm left seeing this conflagration as a conflict of warring personalities competing for the crown of Issuer of the Most Holy Virtue Signal rather than an authentic attempt at reasoned political discourse. And sure, I suppose these people locate themselves on the left side of a left/right dichotomy, but it all seems much more an artifact of contemporary political discourse itself, driven as it by the presentation of simple, emotionally-satisfying explanations of and solutions for complex and often intractable problems, and the need to cast all players as heels or faces (to use American pro-wrestling terminology). As does a stereotyped and cartoonish vision of "the left," which this certainly plays into.
Honest question: When did World Hijab Day become a thing? Is it celebrated worldwide? I really wish the new mayor would start governing NY by addressing the real concerns of all its residents instead of constantly dividing residents into groups and highlighting their differences. It's enough already.
« Défendre le droit d’une personne à faire un choix n’est pas la même chose qu’approuver les valeurs qui sous-tendent ce choix », écrivez-vous. C’est l’éternel problème : si les valeurs en question, celles de l’islam en l’occurrence, reposent sur la négation de la liberté de conscience et sur l’inégalité quasi ontologique (entre hommes et femmes, entre musulmans et non musulmans), quel sens y a-t-il à défendre le droit des musulmans à s’exprimer ? Le registre mental occidental, qui accepte le pluralisme, est en contradiction avec l’habitus islamique, qui lui le refuse, et non seulement ça, mais encore entend l’éradiquer : islam signifie « soumission à la volonté d’Allah », et c’est ce principe-là (et non la délibération) qui doit diriger exclusivement toute la vie du musulman. Votre raisonnement me paraît trop théorique, en ce qu’il fait abstraction du facteur culturel, méconnaissant l’altérité fondamentale de l’islam, et sa puissance sur les esprits musulmans, qu'ils soient ou non nés en Occident.
>If you would object to sex-specific modesty codes that burden women with managing male desire in any other context, you should object here too.
How many people in Western cultures object to their own sex-specific modesty codes that burden women with managing male desire? I've seen plenty of people objecting to hijabs as sexist who would probably flip their lids if they saw some women going topless at the beach.
Well, the progressives object typically. They object to the social conservatives saying women should cover up more. And I am speaking to them. Social conservatives who say western women need to cover up modestly have no grounds for objecting to the hijab.
Good post Helen. If I'm honest you could have saved a lot of effort by just noting - correctly - that Mehdi Hasan is a bad-faith-debating obnoxious arsehole and has been for decades, and leaving it at that. However, I salute your desire to be through and academic.
Thank you!👏🏼 One of my early inklings of progressivism's hypocrisy was back in the aughts when I, as a card carrying member, realized I was much more tolerant of religious conservatism among the Muslim and Christian immigrant groups I worked with in Chicago than among white, working class Christians. I may have been gullible but I'm not a snob, and I had to reckon with my double standard. Few of my fellow progressives seemed interested in consistency, and I eventually recognized the progressive elitism that drove me away for good. It's only gotten worse, as evidenced by Mandami's smug smirk and his betrayal of Iranian women. Excellent take on this issue which is apparently more complex than the identitarians can handle.
People killing each other over... hats.
"Catholic women and Jewish men...hats.
Catholic men and Jewish women, no hats!
Somebody's got the whole thing totally f***ing backwards."
I think all religions should have one rule..hats optional!"
Carlin
Well-spoken, Helen. It's appalling to many of us liberals that progressives support, outwardly or tacitly, Islamofascist regimes like Iran and Hamas, yet fail consistently to support women and gays and transfolk persecuted by these regimes. The fact that Muslim men lost their minds over the images of so-called hijab-supporters wearing AI'ed hijabs exposes the real purpose of hijabs: To teach Muslim women 'their place' and perpetuate the oppression by sexually insecure males.
It reminds me of an argument I had with an Orthodox Jew many years ago on Usenet. At that time, Jewish women in Jerusalem were protesting the historical banning of women from praying at the Western Wall. We libs supported the women while Louis argued against it; he claimed it wasn't 'discrimination' and that they were protesting a tradition that 'respects' the two sexes' 'right' to pray in their own space. They clearly don't agree with you, I pointed out, since they want to pray there and Orthodox Jews won't let them. They disagree with you that it isn't discrimination; why aren't you listening to them? What's it to you if they pray there, too?
He didn't have a good answer for that, he just said that 'different' isn't he same as 'discrimination'. I pointed out that if one side feels discriminated against, and doesn't buy your argument, then it isn't over.
I pointed out that like conservative Muslims, Orthodox Jews keep the sexes strictly segregated as a woman's voice and presence is considered sexually arousing, and prevents men from keeping their minds on God. And that if men can't control their thoughts, Jewish or Muslim, perhaps only women should be allowed to pray at the wall until the boys grow up and take responsibility for their own minds.
Fantastic piece. Very well argued.
Do you notice the parallel?
The very same people who demand Jews enounce Israel to be "good Jews" object to Muslims being invited to denounce the Iranian regime as islamophobia.
I am sooooo glad I renewed my subscription... : )
Doesn’t it make Medhi Hasan a raging homophobe or transphobe, to get so bent out of shape about a woman’s garment being photoshopped onto him? 🤔
Yes, people have been trying to get him and Ali to spell out why they find it disgusting but they won’t. Some others did though and said it was degenerate cross-dressing.
But Mehdi is homophobic. I got very annoyed with Owen Jones because he attacked Tim Farron, leader of the LibDems because he could not say that homosexuality was not a sin according to his Christianity even though he also said he would support all aims for advancing LGBT rights and actually did that, as well as committing to getting Christianity out of schools. I could not agree with his stance, but he walked the walk of a liberal in supporting the rights and freedoms of everyone. Jones said this was unacceptable and that he should resign if he couldn’t say that, but he had also praised Mehdi Hasan for actually saying that he believed homosexuality to be a sin but that he supported the rights of gay people. Hasan was also filmed saying unambiguously homophobic things if I remember correctly.
I wasn’t aware of Hasan having expressed those sentiments but it’s unsurprising: I know he has racial biases, and forms of bigotry often come as package deals.
The interesting thing with the pictures is that Mamdami looks like a sexy male character from Lawrence of Arabia with his hijab, but Hasan looks like a frumpy housewife with a crazy amount of facial hair. I imagine he did not fail to notice this, and it made him especially perturbed.
Paolo, you may be interested in this clip of a speech Mehdi gave in 2009:
https://archive.org/details/MehdiHasan_201601
His internet supporters ensure that this clip is kept off of Wikipedia and YouTube, but his many employers among prestigious leftwing publications all knew about it when he was hired back then, but they didn't care. To be fair to Mehdi, he apologised when it came to light.
Ya know.... I understand your intention to think this through on liberal principles, and you've done that. Still, I'm left seeing this conflagration as a conflict of warring personalities competing for the crown of Issuer of the Most Holy Virtue Signal rather than an authentic attempt at reasoned political discourse. And sure, I suppose these people locate themselves on the left side of a left/right dichotomy, but it all seems much more an artifact of contemporary political discourse itself, driven as it by the presentation of simple, emotionally-satisfying explanations of and solutions for complex and often intractable problems, and the need to cast all players as heels or faces (to use American pro-wrestling terminology). As does a stereotyped and cartoonish vision of "the left," which this certainly plays into.
"...Issuer of the Most Holy Virtue Signal:"...brilliant!
I’m gonna take your word for all of this.
I am coming around to the benefits of Sharia Law.
Honest question: When did World Hijab Day become a thing? Is it celebrated worldwide? I really wish the new mayor would start governing NY by addressing the real concerns of all its residents instead of constantly dividing residents into groups and highlighting their differences. It's enough already.
« Défendre le droit d’une personne à faire un choix n’est pas la même chose qu’approuver les valeurs qui sous-tendent ce choix », écrivez-vous. C’est l’éternel problème : si les valeurs en question, celles de l’islam en l’occurrence, reposent sur la négation de la liberté de conscience et sur l’inégalité quasi ontologique (entre hommes et femmes, entre musulmans et non musulmans), quel sens y a-t-il à défendre le droit des musulmans à s’exprimer ? Le registre mental occidental, qui accepte le pluralisme, est en contradiction avec l’habitus islamique, qui lui le refuse, et non seulement ça, mais encore entend l’éradiquer : islam signifie « soumission à la volonté d’Allah », et c’est ce principe-là (et non la délibération) qui doit diriger exclusivement toute la vie du musulman. Votre raisonnement me paraît trop théorique, en ce qu’il fait abstraction du facteur culturel, méconnaissant l’altérité fondamentale de l’islam, et sa puissance sur les esprits musulmans, qu'ils soient ou non nés en Occident.
Oy! Such tursis. You should only eat something.
Didn’t read the article, just the headline. Resounding answer to the question NO!!!!!
>If you would object to sex-specific modesty codes that burden women with managing male desire in any other context, you should object here too.
How many people in Western cultures object to their own sex-specific modesty codes that burden women with managing male desire? I've seen plenty of people objecting to hijabs as sexist who would probably flip their lids if they saw some women going topless at the beach.
Well, the progressives object typically. They object to the social conservatives saying women should cover up more. And I am speaking to them. Social conservatives who say western women need to cover up modestly have no grounds for objecting to the hijab.