My attempts to come back and re-engage more remotely with the culture wars have just completely fried my brain again. Admittedly, the death of my mother might be skewing my judgement & undermining my resilience right now so I will not make any hasty decisions. But the state of public discourse right now is just so filled with stupidity, tribalistic paranoia and malice, that it is just poisonous to engage with. I have a load of half completed essays here so I will write as and when I can, but I think I made a mistake in wading back in here and was right to retire.
Do you see any way to engage with issues that doesn’t involve wallowing through the worst of human nature while it throws shit at you?
Thanks, everyone. I think as JDW said, I am going to have to treat the need to actually talk to people on social media like an addiction and just write. It's a bit lonely. Takes a lot of the heart out of it. But it's the only way.
I have now been informed that I am accused of being "fragile" because I find all the nastiness upsetting and sometimes go away although he concedes that my behaviour may well be to do with other things in my life. Well, I suppose I am fragile if you define it that way. I do indeed find continuous nastiness wears me down. I wonder if he would in my shoes or if he would deal perfectly calmly with it all. The things that were a bit too much this week was someone joking about the AIDS crisis as part of a denigration of white women and people wishing each other dead either of covid or covid vaccines while maliciously misrepresenting each others views. None of it aimed at me, but is it really so weird to feel depressed at the vindictive callousness of humans to their fellow humans? Also, my 'behaviour' at these times that he seems to think is bad in some way, actually just involves going off social media when it starts getting me down. I don't think this is particularly extreme or antisocial. I actually think social media would be generally better if more people who found themselves getting jaded, angry or upset by it, dealt with it by going away until they felt better. It's definitely better than yelling abuse at people or claiming oppressed victimhood. Just deactivate until you feel able to talk to people like a grown up.
Jan 16, 2023·edited Jan 16, 2023Liked by Helen Pluckrose
Your excellent work lives on in your books and podcasts. Don't feel you have to continue the fight to the detriment of yourself. You have already done more than most of us could imagine
Choose only to engage with those who are doing so in good faith. I know this means you won't be able to engage with some bad ideas, but you can quote tweet and explain why they're bad while still muting or blocking the author.
Helen - selfishly speaking I would like you to remain in some way. You’re one of those friends I’ve never met but don’t want to lose. Please dump the unhealthy marauders that want to punish you for your stances. Mercilessly, totally and instantly banish them until the only ones left are those that you know will engage in positive debates of ideas. Best wishes you marvelous person!!
You could step away now and still have made a lasting contribution. We would still be grateful.
Selfishly, I would miss your insights if you did step away. I feel those insights are sorely needed, now more than ever. But it is not my place to say anything other than "Thank You" for everything so far, and whatever else may come.
I don't know. I have recently become engaged because I am now personally affected in what I think is a very real and serious way (see my most recent post if interested). But, I think things that are happening are wrong on so many levels and so are quite easy to challenge - especially when it comes to the practical rather than the ideological side of things.
Anyway, I hope you don't fully go back into retirement Helen (unless you need to of course - health and sanity must come first), as you are an inspiration and we need you. Especially those of us who are just left of centre in our politics and (though happy to engage with the right on important topics) are dying to hear good arguments being made from the left / just left of centre.
Do whatever it is you most feel like doing (because that is what you will probably end up doing anyway). Save yourself the agonising over it (which doesn't mean you can't also reflect on it). As far as what to consider, that is, if it's worth considering, I would think you'd first have to clearly establish your goal in engagement, the main, superordinate, goal and work backwards from there. I imagine that superordinate goal is "making a difference," or at least that is what might first occur to you in response to the question. I'm sure you can see that that is too vague, so refine it. Who, what sort of people do you want to influence and is that possible? How does influence work? Influence may work in the immediate short term, or medium to long and, even, very long term. Otherwise, I agree with many here that you have already done so much and that the work you have done remains and continues to have its effect. Above all, preserve yourself. We are all grateful.
Jan 16, 2023·edited Jan 19, 2023Liked by Helen Pluckrose
Helen, you've maintained dignity and grace. You've also provided many of us with frameworks and
access to organizations that can help us all move through this cynical era. I agree with the others that Twitter is not a healthy arena and you can build a community of engagement around your Substack page. I am so glad to know you, and I want you to be happy and well. You deserve it so much.
The value is in your writing, in your clear and cogent responses to the issues at hand. There is little evidence that you are going to change anyone's mind over twitter. As someone who spent decades arguing on whatever on line system was available -- we're talking VAX and BBSes from the 80s and 90s -- I don't anymore. I write. I write in response to what I've read and post that in places. I formulate what I might reply in a post and use that as the basis for further writing. I teach. I talk to the people who are open to listening, even if they don't agree.
H, your voice is awesome. I've learned so much from your writing. Years ago, coming across your writing -- long and short form essays -- helped me to know I wasn't going "mad." That there were other people on the leftish side of the divide that saw the same things I did. I'll always be grateful for that.
The tough part with being a writer and a thinker is that you want to engage. You want the dopamine hit. You want the feedback. It's tough. I "slip up" -- sounds like an alcoholic! -- and engage. Then I remember that my time is better spent writing elsewhere.Please don't disengage as completely as you did before. Keep writing in places like this. Keep speaking on podcasts and conferences. That's where you have the greatest impact.
If you keep writing and posting, but not arguing and fighting on places like twitter, you'll force them to hold onto their shit. There will be no (easy) target for them to throw it at. :-)
Helen, I watch you try to engage on Twitter and very honestly I'd say that Twitter is probably 99% of your problem. In a weird way, the yardstick for success on Twitter as a heterodox sort of person is the kind of constant pushback/head-bashing you get.
I don't want to use the phrase "own libs", but it's related to this. The concepts you talk about row against normal-left and extreme-left currents, and both those groups have 0 tolerance policies for that, particularly on Twitter.
If you really don't want that (again, I see you as being in an excellent promotional positioning compared to me and regarding Twitter) then you'd probably just want to confine your spots to your substack, where you deal with a more selected group who is more likely to want to engage with the actual ideas as opposed to burn you in effigy.
I am not sure exactly how to handle the tribalism and bad faith seen on social media. I am insecure and such interaction would be difficult for me to take, so I totally understand how you feel. You take on the major sense-making institutions and they react as if it is war, where one can think of the adage, 'all is fair in love and war'.
Some, who face such an onslaught respond with deflection, mockery, hostility and by eventually allowing such responses to push them off their ideological moorings and entice them into joining those that seem to appreciate them. I think that you have seen this with some close friends. You handle it differently. You are steady as a rock and it is actually quite impressive, but from time to time it gets to you and does damage to your psyche until you need a break. Again, understandable. Those that respect you and care about you are willing to wait for you to be ready to re-engage.
Perhaps, another alternative is to manage your setup on Twitter like Steven Pinker does. Followers can only reply to his tweets if he follows them too. That way, he can get your message out and interact in the public sphere with only those that he chooses. People that he does not follow can DM or email him and he can interact with those new people that find him and want to respectfully and honestly engage with him outside of the virtue signaling prone public forum swamp.
My condolences to you as you adjust to life without your Mum. Thank you for posting this today it was reassuring to hear your voice. Your efforts have done much to keep me from having given up long ago. Your work has provided me with so much to tske on those conversations which are challenging because it is as if I am talking to members of a cult.
Take good care and listen to the wisdom of your own best judgment. Thsnk you again! Great to know you are out there!!!
”Of one hundred fundamentalist Christians, how many do you suppose could be convinced via argument to become atheists? There is no reason that the number of people who can be talked out of this [the woke] religion should be any higher.“ (John McWhorter)
You are a hero, Helen. Don't waste your time arguing with idiots.
the fact that unreasoning forces of opposition--left and right--want you / us to give up is, perhaps, the most important reason to remain engaged. but do so at your own pace.
Thanks, everyone. I think as JDW said, I am going to have to treat the need to actually talk to people on social media like an addiction and just write. It's a bit lonely. Takes a lot of the heart out of it. But it's the only way.
I have now been informed that I am accused of being "fragile" because I find all the nastiness upsetting and sometimes go away although he concedes that my behaviour may well be to do with other things in my life. Well, I suppose I am fragile if you define it that way. I do indeed find continuous nastiness wears me down. I wonder if he would in my shoes or if he would deal perfectly calmly with it all. The things that were a bit too much this week was someone joking about the AIDS crisis as part of a denigration of white women and people wishing each other dead either of covid or covid vaccines while maliciously misrepresenting each others views. None of it aimed at me, but is it really so weird to feel depressed at the vindictive callousness of humans to their fellow humans? Also, my 'behaviour' at these times that he seems to think is bad in some way, actually just involves going off social media when it starts getting me down. I don't think this is particularly extreme or antisocial. I actually think social media would be generally better if more people who found themselves getting jaded, angry or upset by it, dealt with it by going away until they felt better. It's definitely better than yelling abuse at people or claiming oppressed victimhood. Just deactivate until you feel able to talk to people like a grown up.
Your excellent work lives on in your books and podcasts. Don't feel you have to continue the fight to the detriment of yourself. You have already done more than most of us could imagine
Choose only to engage with those who are doing so in good faith. I know this means you won't be able to engage with some bad ideas, but you can quote tweet and explain why they're bad while still muting or blocking the author.
Helen - selfishly speaking I would like you to remain in some way. You’re one of those friends I’ve never met but don’t want to lose. Please dump the unhealthy marauders that want to punish you for your stances. Mercilessly, totally and instantly banish them until the only ones left are those that you know will engage in positive debates of ideas. Best wishes you marvelous person!!
Only you know what is the correct path for you.
You could step away now and still have made a lasting contribution. We would still be grateful.
Selfishly, I would miss your insights if you did step away. I feel those insights are sorely needed, now more than ever. But it is not my place to say anything other than "Thank You" for everything so far, and whatever else may come.
I don't know. I have recently become engaged because I am now personally affected in what I think is a very real and serious way (see my most recent post if interested). But, I think things that are happening are wrong on so many levels and so are quite easy to challenge - especially when it comes to the practical rather than the ideological side of things.
Anyway, I hope you don't fully go back into retirement Helen (unless you need to of course - health and sanity must come first), as you are an inspiration and we need you. Especially those of us who are just left of centre in our politics and (though happy to engage with the right on important topics) are dying to hear good arguments being made from the left / just left of centre.
All the best!
Hello dear Helen,
Do whatever it is you most feel like doing (because that is what you will probably end up doing anyway). Save yourself the agonising over it (which doesn't mean you can't also reflect on it). As far as what to consider, that is, if it's worth considering, I would think you'd first have to clearly establish your goal in engagement, the main, superordinate, goal and work backwards from there. I imagine that superordinate goal is "making a difference," or at least that is what might first occur to you in response to the question. I'm sure you can see that that is too vague, so refine it. Who, what sort of people do you want to influence and is that possible? How does influence work? Influence may work in the immediate short term, or medium to long and, even, very long term. Otherwise, I agree with many here that you have already done so much and that the work you have done remains and continues to have its effect. Above all, preserve yourself. We are all grateful.
Helen, you've maintained dignity and grace. You've also provided many of us with frameworks and
access to organizations that can help us all move through this cynical era. I agree with the others that Twitter is not a healthy arena and you can build a community of engagement around your Substack page. I am so glad to know you, and I want you to be happy and well. You deserve it so much.
The value is in your writing, in your clear and cogent responses to the issues at hand. There is little evidence that you are going to change anyone's mind over twitter. As someone who spent decades arguing on whatever on line system was available -- we're talking VAX and BBSes from the 80s and 90s -- I don't anymore. I write. I write in response to what I've read and post that in places. I formulate what I might reply in a post and use that as the basis for further writing. I teach. I talk to the people who are open to listening, even if they don't agree.
H, your voice is awesome. I've learned so much from your writing. Years ago, coming across your writing -- long and short form essays -- helped me to know I wasn't going "mad." That there were other people on the leftish side of the divide that saw the same things I did. I'll always be grateful for that.
The tough part with being a writer and a thinker is that you want to engage. You want the dopamine hit. You want the feedback. It's tough. I "slip up" -- sounds like an alcoholic! -- and engage. Then I remember that my time is better spent writing elsewhere.Please don't disengage as completely as you did before. Keep writing in places like this. Keep speaking on podcasts and conferences. That's where you have the greatest impact.
If you keep writing and posting, but not arguing and fighting on places like twitter, you'll force them to hold onto their shit. There will be no (easy) target for them to throw it at. :-)
Helen, I watch you try to engage on Twitter and very honestly I'd say that Twitter is probably 99% of your problem. In a weird way, the yardstick for success on Twitter as a heterodox sort of person is the kind of constant pushback/head-bashing you get.
I don't want to use the phrase "own libs", but it's related to this. The concepts you talk about row against normal-left and extreme-left currents, and both those groups have 0 tolerance policies for that, particularly on Twitter.
If you really don't want that (again, I see you as being in an excellent promotional positioning compared to me and regarding Twitter) then you'd probably just want to confine your spots to your substack, where you deal with a more selected group who is more likely to want to engage with the actual ideas as opposed to burn you in effigy.
"Do you see any way to engage with issues that doesn’t involve wallowing through the worst of human nature while it throws shit at you?"
Use platforms other than Twitter.
I am not sure exactly how to handle the tribalism and bad faith seen on social media. I am insecure and such interaction would be difficult for me to take, so I totally understand how you feel. You take on the major sense-making institutions and they react as if it is war, where one can think of the adage, 'all is fair in love and war'.
Some, who face such an onslaught respond with deflection, mockery, hostility and by eventually allowing such responses to push them off their ideological moorings and entice them into joining those that seem to appreciate them. I think that you have seen this with some close friends. You handle it differently. You are steady as a rock and it is actually quite impressive, but from time to time it gets to you and does damage to your psyche until you need a break. Again, understandable. Those that respect you and care about you are willing to wait for you to be ready to re-engage.
Perhaps, another alternative is to manage your setup on Twitter like Steven Pinker does. Followers can only reply to his tweets if he follows them too. That way, he can get your message out and interact in the public sphere with only those that he chooses. People that he does not follow can DM or email him and he can interact with those new people that find him and want to respectfully and honestly engage with him outside of the virtue signaling prone public forum swamp.
Helen-
My condolences to you as you adjust to life without your Mum. Thank you for posting this today it was reassuring to hear your voice. Your efforts have done much to keep me from having given up long ago. Your work has provided me with so much to tske on those conversations which are challenging because it is as if I am talking to members of a cult.
Take good care and listen to the wisdom of your own best judgment. Thsnk you again! Great to know you are out there!!!
”Of one hundred fundamentalist Christians, how many do you suppose could be convinced via argument to become atheists? There is no reason that the number of people who can be talked out of this [the woke] religion should be any higher.“ (John McWhorter)
You are a hero, Helen. Don't waste your time arguing with idiots.
the fact that unreasoning forces of opposition--left and right--want you / us to give up is, perhaps, the most important reason to remain engaged. but do so at your own pace.