I have a suspicion that the same is true of those who self-identify as pansexual. They claim to be attracted to anyone, regardless of their sex or their gender. Which may be a worthy aspiration, but, as you say, not the way attraction actually works. You find somebody sexy, because ... well, you find them sexy. Your politics doesn't come into it.
It's interesting to look at bisexuals themselves. I know quite a few bisexual women who when dating women prefer lesbians to other bisexual women. Ultimately I think it's not good to try to right any discrimination in the world by going after who people want to date.
I think this is because like in the bisexual vs straight men case, the problem is “dick is plentiful”. If your partner is attracted to men the opportunities to cheat are far more numerous than if they are only attracted to women.
Of course, the goal is to find a partner that never wants to cheat. But I think this is fairly unlikely across a lifetime. A “moment of weakness” is more likely to actually lead to sex if men are an option than if only women are.
One quibble is that I think that many women - at least today - are attracted to the idea of two men together - the wildly successful heartstopper series as well as the gay hockey book were written by and for women. In fact the majority of gay erotic novels that have made it mainstream were written by women. And it’s all over fandom and fan fiction.
So why don’t more of these women put their desires into effect? Well, I’d say it’s because men and women are different. It’s much, much riskier for a woman to let an extra man into her bed than it is for a man to let an extra women into his (On the other hand it’s probably much easier to find a male third than a female one). Plus as you say women are choosier. I might not want to commit to a man who can easily go out and get a hookup in seconds on an app if he wanted to. Straight men have a much harder time cheating because women are not on grindr.
I don’t believe I’m being biphobic in making this assessment - straight men are just as likely to want to be cheating bastards. It’s just much more difficult for them. So if I want a monogamous partner I do think it’s somewhat reasonable to be wary of openly bi men if one is looking for something long term. I’d be looking for some demonstrated evidence that he’s interested in monogamy and not hookups.
But on the other side I’d actually be thrilled if my partner who has proven he’s not going to cheat came out to me as bi. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite, I don’t know.
Possible. I suppose 19% is still enough to fund novel series. I think it’s more though. Consistently in fandom the most common “shipping” pairings women prefer by far are men with other men. It seems persistent from the beginning and started with Kirk x Spock.
It could be the case that they have a very different reaction with fictional or semi-fictional characters or celebrities, than with people in real life. That is difficult to think and research about tho.
I am a bisexual man. I am also much to the joy of superkayso present as the masculine muscled thirsty promiscuous stereotype, admittedly pure top so have a slightly lower STI risk than she might suggest, but yes a wider range of partners, and many parts of the gay and trans scene have very different sexual morals and partner turn over than straight basic lady preference dating.
But, honestly, never had an issue. 1) the male and trans gaze is much sterner, bi men on average dress, smell and look better because we will get judged for it. Abs not popping, not jacked and hung? You will be asked for body and dick pics up front on Grindr. Straight lads barely have to shave and throw on a shirt. Advantage bi 2) Dating apps are wide ranging and powerful these days. I found a lot of female partners that were turned on not off. The ones that had always wondered about two fellas for example. This is much easier to organise successfully for the inquisitive madam with a bi male partner. Apps like Feeld allow the adventurous ladies to seek us out. Play to your strengths and find your niche. 3) Some selectivity gentlemen goes a long way. Being based in central London, with the universities and largely liberal and younger population makes a huge difference. When I did try to swing a date up in Newcastle on a work trip was the only time I got homophobic comments. I would suggest there might be some political and class skew to these results.
Yup, not homophobic but definitely a real phenomen. The sad outcome is it's really in the interest of most bi men to hide their bisexuality from women they're interested in. In the same way they should probably hide their porn collections. The real question is whether this hiding is bad.
At first I thought you were responding to my final sentence and declining to leave other people's consensual sex lives alone, but, on reflection, I think it is more likely you are replying to the title.
I have a suspicion that the same is true of those who self-identify as pansexual. They claim to be attracted to anyone, regardless of their sex or their gender. Which may be a worthy aspiration, but, as you say, not the way attraction actually works. You find somebody sexy, because ... well, you find them sexy. Your politics doesn't come into it.
It's interesting to look at bisexuals themselves. I know quite a few bisexual women who when dating women prefer lesbians to other bisexual women. Ultimately I think it's not good to try to right any discrimination in the world by going after who people want to date.
I think this is because like in the bisexual vs straight men case, the problem is “dick is plentiful”. If your partner is attracted to men the opportunities to cheat are far more numerous than if they are only attracted to women.
Of course, the goal is to find a partner that never wants to cheat. But I think this is fairly unlikely across a lifetime. A “moment of weakness” is more likely to actually lead to sex if men are an option than if only women are.
Very, very well said. I don't disagree with a word.
A good a article as usual Helen. A warning though:
"I am sure the majority of bisexual men would not wish to pressure women into having sex with them to demonstrate their inclusivity either."
Given that this is exactly the road trans-activism has gone down, I would be careful of any assumptions...
One quibble is that I think that many women - at least today - are attracted to the idea of two men together - the wildly successful heartstopper series as well as the gay hockey book were written by and for women. In fact the majority of gay erotic novels that have made it mainstream were written by women. And it’s all over fandom and fan fiction.
So why don’t more of these women put their desires into effect? Well, I’d say it’s because men and women are different. It’s much, much riskier for a woman to let an extra man into her bed than it is for a man to let an extra women into his (On the other hand it’s probably much easier to find a male third than a female one). Plus as you say women are choosier. I might not want to commit to a man who can easily go out and get a hookup in seconds on an app if he wanted to. Straight men have a much harder time cheating because women are not on grindr.
I don’t believe I’m being biphobic in making this assessment - straight men are just as likely to want to be cheating bastards. It’s just much more difficult for them. So if I want a monogamous partner I do think it’s somewhat reasonable to be wary of openly bi men if one is looking for something long term. I’d be looking for some demonstrated evidence that he’s interested in monogamy and not hookups.
But on the other side I’d actually be thrilled if my partner who has proven he’s not going to cheat came out to me as bi. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite, I don’t know.
Or these are the 19% of women.
Possible. I suppose 19% is still enough to fund novel series. I think it’s more though. Consistently in fandom the most common “shipping” pairings women prefer by far are men with other men. It seems persistent from the beginning and started with Kirk x Spock.
Women certainly like romantic stories about men loving men. Not the same thing as being attracted to them.
Interesting. As someone who isn’t attracted to bisexual men, do you enjoy the romantic stories between men in a sexual way or some other way?
many female fans of this material definitely find it sexually arousing.
It could be the case that they have a very different reaction with fictional or semi-fictional characters or celebrities, than with people in real life. That is difficult to think and research about tho.
Maybe it is often a little homophobic. Why would they want to date a homophobic woman if they are openly bissexual? I would see no point.
Why?
I am a bisexual man. I am also much to the joy of superkayso present as the masculine muscled thirsty promiscuous stereotype, admittedly pure top so have a slightly lower STI risk than she might suggest, but yes a wider range of partners, and many parts of the gay and trans scene have very different sexual morals and partner turn over than straight basic lady preference dating.
But, honestly, never had an issue. 1) the male and trans gaze is much sterner, bi men on average dress, smell and look better because we will get judged for it. Abs not popping, not jacked and hung? You will be asked for body and dick pics up front on Grindr. Straight lads barely have to shave and throw on a shirt. Advantage bi 2) Dating apps are wide ranging and powerful these days. I found a lot of female partners that were turned on not off. The ones that had always wondered about two fellas for example. This is much easier to organise successfully for the inquisitive madam with a bi male partner. Apps like Feeld allow the adventurous ladies to seek us out. Play to your strengths and find your niche. 3) Some selectivity gentlemen goes a long way. Being based in central London, with the universities and largely liberal and younger population makes a huge difference. When I did try to swing a date up in Newcastle on a work trip was the only time I got homophobic comments. I would suggest there might be some political and class skew to these results.
Yup, not homophobic but definitely a real phenomen. The sad outcome is it's really in the interest of most bi men to hide their bisexuality from women they're interested in. In the same way they should probably hide their porn collections. The real question is whether this hiding is bad.
No but it is homophobic when they’re not attracted to me. Might seem counter-intuitive but I promise you it’s true, ladies.
duh
I think Alice could easily answer her own question - if she dared to, rather than being specious.
No
At first I thought you were responding to my final sentence and declining to leave other people's consensual sex lives alone, but, on reflection, I think it is more likely you are replying to the title.